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Intermittent fasting - diet approach


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Some of you have proobably seen this popularized by the "warrior diet" etc. It's a more natural approach to food timing that would closer mimic a hunter/gatherer who would likely eat one meal, possibly 2, in a 24 hr period with a LONG fasting period. Up until now its was largely theory but a recent study seems to verify it to some degree (at least in mice).

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22608008

 

See also: http://www.ergo-log.com/confining-time-in-which-you-eat-makes-you-slimmer.html

 

After about four months the FA mice had put on a lot of weight. The mice that had eaten the same food, but had fasted for 16 hours a day were considerably slimmer. But the FA and the FT mice had all consumed the same amount of calories. The researchers found a similar, but smaller, difference in the mice that had been given normal food.

 

I was curious what some of you thought of this. Particularly [MENTION=2]Benson[/MENTION]

 

I guess for practical use in the real world, one could fast through bed time (8 hrs or so) and into the day then consuming one pre-workout meal after 14-16 hrs of fasting. Then a light carb/protein shake or something after the work out. Still, this application just sounds sort of crazy in real world use. The study is still interesting and this WOULD be how animals in the wild typical eat in terms of feeding patterns.

 

p.s. apologize if this study has already been posted/discussed.

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Well, this sucks. Probably won't be an issue until I'm much leaner, but I guess I should eventually switch from Xtend in the AM to regular old BCAA.   Am J Physiol. 1986 Mar;250(3 Pt 1):E24

A different take on IF   This study compared a 30% ER diet for two weeks followed by an "energy balanced" diet for two weeks, etc. against a straight 30% ER continuous diet.   The

Well, seven years later and I still believe this. I've restarted 5:2 IF and I feel great. It is the ideal form of diet for me because it is completely binary and the "rules" are stupidly simple. I alw

The same effect has been shown in humans.

 

Int J Obes (Lond). 2011 May;35(5):714-27. Epub 2010 Oct 5.

The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomized trial in young overweight women.

Harvie MN, Pegington M, Mattson MP, Frystyk J, Dillon B, Evans G, Cuzick J, Jebb SA, Martin B, Cutler RG, Son TG, Maudsley S, Carlson OD, Egan JM, Flyvbjerg A, Howell A.

Source

 

Genesis Prevention Centre, University Hospital of South Manchester NHS Foundation Trust, Manchester, UK. michelle.harvie@manchester.ac.uk

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

 

The problems of adherence to energy restriction in humans are well known.

OBJECTIVE:

 

To compare the feasibility and effectiveness of intermittent continuous energy (IER) with continuous energy restriction (CER) for weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other metabolic disease risk markers.

DESIGN:

 

Randomized comparison of a 25% energy restriction as IER (∼ 2710 kJ/day for 2 days/week) or CER (∼ 6276 kJ/day for 7 days/week) in 107 overweight or obese (mean (± s.d.) body mass index 30.6 (± 5.1) kg m(-2)) premenopausal women observed over a period of 6 months. Weight, anthropometry, biomarkers for breast cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and dementia risk; insulin resistance (HOMA), oxidative stress markers, leptin, adiponectin, insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1 and IGF binding proteins 1 and 2, androgens, prolactin, inflammatory markers (high sensitivity C-reactive protein and sialic acid), lipids, blood pressure and brain-derived neurotrophic factor were assessed at baseline and after 1, 3 and 6 months.

RESULTS:

 

Last observation carried forward analysis showed that IER and CER are equally effective for weight loss: mean (95% confidence interval ) weight change for IER was -6.4 (-7.9 to -4.8) kg vs -5.6 (-6.9 to -4.4) kg for CER (P-value for difference between groups = 0.4). Both groups experienced comparable reductions in leptin, free androgen index, high-sensitivity C-reactive protein, total and LDL cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure and increases in sex hormone binding globulin, IGF binding proteins 1 and 2. Reductions in fasting insulin and insulin resistance were modest in both groups, but greater with IER than with CER; difference between groups for fasting insulin was -1.2 (-1.4 to -1.0) μU ml(-1) and for insulin resistance was -1.2 (-1.5 to -1.0) μU mmol(-1) l(-1) (both P = 0.04).

CONCLUSION:

 

IER is as effective as CER with regard to weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other health biomarkers, and may be offered as an alternative equivalent to CER for weight loss and reducing disease risk.

 

PMID: 20921964

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3017674/?tool=pubmed

 

 

 

The confounder here is that the IF group was getting almost all protein on the days they were fasting so that may be different from not eating at all.

 

There is actually a pretty substantial body of knowledge on the effects of fasting in humans because the Islamic tradition of a month of daylight fasting during Ramadan has been extensively reviewed...my own take on it is that IF is probably one of the most effective ways to reduce overall caloric intake and probably gives you the most bang for your buck in terms of the positive metabolic effects of energy restriction. It also allows you to largely consume what you want to satiation when you are not fasting...

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Here is one using alternate-day fasting in non-obese individuals.

 

Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jan;81(1):69-73.

Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism.

Heilbronn LK, Smith SR, Martin CK, Anton SD, Ravussin E.

Source

 

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA 70808, USA.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

 

Prolonged dietary restriction increases the life span in rodents. Some evidence suggests that alternate-day fasting may also prolong the life span.

OBJECTIVE:

 

Our goal was to determine whether alternate-day fasting is a feasible method of dietary restriction in nonobese humans and whether it improves known biomarkers of longevity.

DESIGN:

 

Nonobese subjects (8 men and 8 women) fasted every other day for 22 d. Body weight, body composition, resting metabolic rate (RMR), respiratory quotient (RQ), temperature, fasting serum glucose, insulin, free fatty acids, and ghrelin were assessed at baseline and after 21 d (12-h fast) and 22 d (36-h fast) of alternate-day fasting. Visual analogue scales were used to assess hunger weekly.

RESULTS:

 

Subjects lost 2.5 +/- 0.5% of their initial body weight (P or =15 g. Glucose and ghrelin did not change significantly from baseline with alternate-day fasting, whereas fasting insulin decreased 57 +/- 4% (P

CONCLUSIONS:

 

Alternate-day fasting was feasible in nonobese subjects, and fat oxidation increased. However, hunger on fasting days did not decrease, perhaps indicating the unlikelihood of continuing this diet for extended periods of time. Adding one small meal on a fasting day may make this approach to dietary restriction more acceptable.

 

PMID: 15640462

 

http://www.ajcn.org/content/81/1/69.long#F1

 

Despite being warned that they would need to eat 2x on ad libitum "feasting days" to maintain BW and having a scale to measure food, they still lost a good deal of weight over three weeks.

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The same effect has been shown in humans.

 

Int J Obes (Lond). 2011 May;35(5):714-27. Epub 2010 Oct 5.

The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomized trial in young overweight women.

Harvie MN, Pegington M, Mattson MP, Frystyk J, Dillon B, Evans G, Cuzick J, Jebb SA, Martin B, Cutler RG, Son TG, Maudsley S, Carlson OD, Egan JM, Flyvbjerg A, Howell A.

Source

 

Genesis Prevention Centre, University Hospital of South Manchester NHS Foundation Trust, Manchester, UK. michelle.harvie@manchester.ac.uk

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

 

The problems of adherence to energy restriction in humans are well known.

OBJECTIVE:

 

To compare the feasibility and effectiveness of intermittent continuous energy (IER) with continuous energy restriction (CER) for weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other metabolic disease risk markers.

DESIGN:

 

Randomized comparison of a 25% energy restriction as IER (∼ 2710 kJ/day for 2 days/week) or CER (∼ 6276 kJ/day for 7 days/week) in 107 overweight or obese (mean (± s.d.) body mass index 30.6 (± 5.1) kg m(-2)) premenopausal women observed over a period of 6 months. Weight, anthropometry, biomarkers for breast cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and dementia risk; insulin resistance (HOMA), oxidative stress markers, leptin, adiponectin, insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1 and IGF binding proteins 1 and 2, androgens, prolactin, inflammatory markers (high sensitivity C-reactive protein and sialic acid), lipids, blood pressure and brain-derived neurotrophic factor were assessed at baseline and after 1, 3 and 6 months.

RESULTS:

 

Last observation carried forward analysis showed that IER and CER are equally effective for weight loss: mean (95% confidence interval ) weight change for IER was -6.4 (-7.9 to -4.8) kg vs -5.6 (-6.9 to -4.4) kg for CER (P-value for difference between groups = 0.4). Both groups experienced comparable reductions in leptin, free androgen index, high-sensitivity C-reactive protein, total and LDL cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure and increases in sex hormone binding globulin, IGF binding proteins 1 and 2. Reductions in fasting insulin and insulin resistance were modest in both groups, but greater with IER than with CER; difference between groups for fasting insulin was -1.2 (-1.4 to -1.0) μU ml(-1) and for insulin resistance was -1.2 (-1.5 to -1.0) μU mmol(-1) l(-1) (both P = 0.04).

CONCLUSION:

 

IER is as effective as CER with regard to weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other health biomarkers, and may be offered as an alternative equivalent to CER for weight loss and reducing disease risk.

 

PMID: 20921964

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3017674/?tool=pubmed

 

 

 

The confounder here is that the IF group was getting almost all protein on the days they were fasting so that may be different from not eating at all.

 

There is actually a pretty substantial body of knowledge on the effects of fasting in humans because the Islamic tradition of a month of daylight fasting during Ramadan has been extensively reviewed...my own take on it is that IF is probably one of the most effective ways to reduce overall caloric intake and probably gives you the most bang for your buck in terms of the positive metabolic effects of energy restriction. It also allows you to largely consume what you want to satiation when you are not fasting...

 

It seems easy enough to fast through bed time and up until around the noon hour. Still, despite these studies, that does not seem like it would lead to ideal body composition changes. Personally, I "seem" to notice better body composition changes when I am dieting and I consume some oatmeal and a protein shake immediately upon rising. I feel a noticeable increase in body temperature an hour or so after eating and it seems to get my metabolism going much better than when I do nothing for breakfast (or just consume a whey shake). I feel this routine is optimal for muscle gain too. I have tried fasting until noon and I tended to be more inclined to binge a little more at that feeding as well. Blood sugar got low and cravings were more pronounced, especially for poorer food choices. I see the studies and I understand the concept, but in real world application I struggle to see how having 1 meal at noon and then hitting the gym at some point in the evening and then having another post workout meal would be ideal for us compared to eating smart all day and consuming roughly the same calories. At times when my body fat was the highest, I was eating 1-2 large, shitty meals a day with hectic college/work schedules. My overall calories were not that high, but the meal timing seemed to be promoting fat storage. I realize this fasting approach does not work when you consume too many calories at one sitting but it still doesn't seem ideal.

 

I guess I struggle with how to apply it to real world use. Simply fasting until noon does not seem like its the smartest choice. Half of America fails to properly hydrate or eat upon rising and dont touch food until Noon as it is. To me, this seems to lead to obesity (obviously, they are also eating too many calories and too much fat as well). It also seems so counter-intuitive to the all important "morning meal" etc. I guess if skipping breakfast is the ONLY way to cut your calorie intake then it works, but to me, a lighter lunch and/or pre-workout meal/snack seems a wiser sacrifice than no carbs/protein in the early A.M. within an hour after rising. Then again, the studies seem to refute this and to me there is a disconnect between the studies and real world anecdotal evidence and observation.

 

Thoughts?

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Understanding that you only have 2 meals in which to consume your calories, it can feel like a bit of a binge. As long as you are hitting your target for calories in your "binge", then what's your concern?

 

My typical 1st meal looks like this:

 

3 hard-boiled eggs

6-9oz of some sort of meat

vegetables

cottage cheese

almonds

 

For dinner, I try to do something similar, but I generally have carbs with that meal. So my lunch feels like a binge, because I'm eating ~1000 cals.

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Thoughts?

 

So... You see the studies showing that IF in one form or another is a cool thing, but choose to believe otherwise because.. Well because what? You don't like it, feel that it leads to fat storage and think that "Half of America fails to properly hydrate or eat upon rising and dont touch food until Noon as it is"? (How do you know that, anyway?)

 

Also, eating fat does neither kill you nor make you obese, and calories in / calories out is nothing more than a hand waving exercise.

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So... You see the studies showing that IF in one form or another is a cool thing, but choose to believe otherwise because.. Well because what? You don't like it, feel that it leads to fat storage and think that "Half of America fails to properly hydrate or eat upon rising and dont touch food until Noon as it is"? (How do you know that, anyway?)

 

Also, eating fat does neither kill you nor make you obese, and calories in / calories out is nothing more than a hand waving exercise.

 

Haha, YES! I see the data but it's hard to break free of the dogmatic thinking that frequent small meals, especially an early A.M. meal, helps keep metabolism charged and blood sugar levels stable. Trust me, I realize what the research means, it just sort of flies in the face of the "conventional wisdom" (broscience) so many of us have become used to with the "bodybuilding" type diets/eating patterns. It's hard for me to adopt it and just trust the studies, that is all I'm saying. I'm not doubting the merits, that is why I brought the topic and study up. I dont think its a stretch to say I "feel" better after a light breakfast but perhaps I'm missing out on CR type benefits and my diet would be going even better if I did not.

 

So what would you guys suggest? Fast until noon, then another smaller/light meal post-workout and thats it (I work out around 6:30pm)? I typically have a light lunch and then a smaller snack/meal with protein/carbs before the workout just to have some extra energy. 30min before actual workout I typically take some caffeine and stimulant of some kind (a pre-workout product) and BCAA/EAA. I hate working out fasted/depleted. My intensity is just not the same when pushing heavy weights, less pump, etc. Should I move away from this thinking though and focus into my evening workout with only 1 meal prior in a less fed state? Im curious to try IF especially since I'm dieting right now anyway. I'm on albuterol/t3/tbol/trenevar so I doubt I'm going to get too catabolic due to the AAS anyway. I still think when working to gain muscle a protein/oatmeal breakfast upon rising is ideal.

 

 

Loving the fallacy of breakfast article, thank you! Is John Kiefer the second coming of christ? Loved all three of these "logic" articles. What do you guys think of the Carb Nite plan? Seems like a standard carb cycling/modulation plan with a big refeed every 10th day. Who here are proponents of carb cycling? He's also a big fan of no breakfast and BACK-LOADING carbs, e.g. most if not all carbs POST workout to signal insulin response at an ideal time yet also avoid fat storage. Only problem is I would be eating this meal at roughly 8-8:30pm every night. I guess in reality that doesnt matter much.

 

Imagine waiting until 3 or 4 in the evening to lift. Not eating carbs up to this point, neither fat nor muscle has had much of a signal to grow. After training, the consumption of carbs begins en masse, starting with the post-workout shake containing copious amounts of a simple carbohydrate powder. A massive growth signal ensues, but in the evening after lifting, only muscle can take advantage of the signal and not body fat. This effect continues on through the night until bedtime. No more back-fat growth; no more beer-belly expansion; no more second chin. Back-loading carbs in the day tunes the body to grow primarily muscle.

 

http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/carb-back-loading/

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Half of America fails to properly hydrate or eat upon rising and dont touch food until Noon as it is.

 

I think it's also worth considering that the same population is not likely to get any exercise, ever. Then there's also smoking, alcohol consumption, and the drug-like properties of the ubiquitous HFCS; none of which our hypothetical analysis is controlling for.

 

In the land of generalizations, confounds abound.

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Wasn't there data published recently showing that the amount of water consumption officially recommended is way more than required?

 

There was this. Not sure about other recent stuff. American Journal of Physiology August 8, 02 Valtin - http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/283/5/R993.long

 

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020711213420data_trunc_sys.shtml

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I'd suggest you consider fasting on non-workout days and then eat' date=' ad libitum on days when you work out.[/quote']

 

So like fast until noon, eat a larger lunch, nothing until 6:30pm workout, lighter PWO dinner w/ slightly higher carbs. TBH, I "work out" 5-6 days a week right now. I have heavy training days 3-4 days a week and my lighter days I do an ab/core & light plyo focused class. I dont have off days where I could fast and on days where I could pig out (ad-libbing on workout days still sounds slovenly anyway). I really want to control my carb intake more. I would be fasting every day with higher Pre-workout carb lunch intake on days like legs, back/bi, etc. Even an "off" night I at least get in and do some stair mill or something. Usually only take a full day on Sunday. It would probably be over training if I wasn't taking AAS but so far I seem to be ok. Fat still coming off, muscle staying, CNS seems ok.

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I'd try not eating at all on your lighter days...you are not going to hurt anything by doing a little fasted cardio on those days...drink plenty of water and see how that treats you.

 

What does your gear use look like?

 

Light, just enough to ward of major muscle loss when cutting hard. Baek San Medica liquid Tbol, 50mg/day, 30-40mg/day Trenevar (a new designer prohormone you're probably familiar with), albuterol (8mg/day), t3 (50-75mcg/day), low dose letrozole, PES Erase. Various other supplements to help cut (Green Coffee Bean,ALA/ALCAR, cinnamon extract before carb meals, Ursolic acid caps in megas doses (Smart powders), GTE, CLA, Resv, fish oil, african mango (lol I know) etc. playing with other stuff, whatever tickles my fancy). I take a lot of bs. :D

 

This reminds me one of you guys should invite Pat Arnold over here. Dont know how much he would post though. PM him on PHF forums. Tell him its a board started by former mods/longtime contributors of M&M.

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He is a member here.

 

Awesome. He's got a great ursolic transdermal product I want to try next. Oral bioavailability or ursolic acid is poor. ;) Such a supplement whore. Anyway, hard to tell what exactly has been key since I've been dieting hard and taking so much shit. All I know is I have gotten much leaner, very quick. I've dropped 10lb+ of almost entirely fat in about 3.5 months of steady, gradual loss. I have a little bit of lower abdominal pudge and some pec fat I want to clean up and I will be at my all time best condition.

 

TBH, insulin/carb control seems to make the most difference in my physique when it comes to fat loss. I feel like Green Coffee Bean, ALA, cinnamon before carb meals has helped a lot but who knows.

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My fast is normally 19-20 hours with two decent sized meals in a 4-5 hour window.

I find the challenge is getting past the first day or two without eating in the middle of the fast.

My mind tries to convince me its just not going to work unless I had a HUGE meal the night before.

In practice I know I this isn't the case, but sometimes it feels like it.

I occasionally have killer cravings and cave after work, before going to bed. I suspect this has to do with carb intake levels and stress causing me to seek food.

I hauled a bunch of 5HTP to work and set a timer on my phone to take it about an hour before I get off. I'm hoping this helps with the urge to pick up something on the way home. Too early to tell so far.

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My fast is normally 19-20 hours with two decent sized meals in a 4-5 hour window.

I find the challenge is getting past the first day or two without eating in the middle of the fast.

My mind tries to convince me its just not going to work unless I had a HUGE meal the night before.

In practice I know I this isn't the case, but sometimes it feels like it.

I occasionally have killer cravings and cave after work, before going to bed. I suspect this has to do with carb intake levels and stress causing me to seek food.

I hauled a bunch of 5HTP to work and set a timer on my phone to take it about an hour before I get off. I'm hoping this helps with the urge to pick up something on the way home. Too early to tell so far.

 

That is a LONG time. So when do you eat in relation to when you work out? How does your schedule go? I can fast as long as my energy levels dont get so shitty that I have crappy workouts and feel depleted and stuff all the time. I have never tried a TRUE IF protocol so I have no idea. I may surprise myself.

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That is a LONG time. So when do you eat in relation to when you work out? How does your schedule go? I can fast as long as my energy levels dont get so shitty that I have crappy workouts and feel depleted and stuff all the time. I have never tried a TRUE IF protocol so I have no idea. I may surprise myself.

 

Hundreds of thousands of years of natural selection have prepared you for this...having constant access to food is not the conditions we experienced until very recently...being a little hungry some of the time is a very natural and healthy thing.

 

Do you think your ancestors said "We can't hunt for mammoth today until we have had our full breakfast"? Negative. They just went out and hunted and then ate when the food because available.

 

Take off your skirt and just do it! ;)

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