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Testosterone Thresholds

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Ever wonder how high your T levels need to be to make anabolic changes?

 

According to this, you need to have levels at +1200ng/dl to make a difference...somewhat less if you are also supplementing with growth hormone...

 

 

J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2011 Jan;66(1):122-9. doi: 10.1093/gerona/glq183. Epub 2010 Nov 8.

Testosterone threshold levels and lean tissue mass targets needed to enhance skeletal muscle strength and function: the HORMA trial.

Sattler F, Bhasin S, He J, Chou CP, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Yarasheski K, Binder E, Schroeder ET, Kawakubo M, Zhang A, Roubenoff R, Azen S.

Source

 

Department of Medicine, University of Southern California, 2020 Zonal Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90033, USA. fsattler@usc.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

 

In the HORMA (Hormonal Regulators of Muscle and Metabolism in Aging) Trial, supplemental testosterone and recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) enhanced lean body mass, appendicular skeletal muscle mass, muscle performance, and physical function, but there was substantial interindividual variability in outcomes.

METHODS:

 

One hundred and twelve men aged 65-90 years received testosterone gel (5 g/d vs 10 g/d via Leydig cell clamp) and rhGH (0 vs 3 vs 5 μg/kg/d) in a double-masked 2 × 3 factorial design for 16 weeks. Outcomes included lean tissue mass by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, one-repetition maximum strength, Margaria stair power, and activity questionnaires. We used pathway analysis to determine the relationship between changes in hormone levels, muscle mass, strength, and function.

RESULTS:

 

Increases in total testosterone of 1046 ng/dL (95% confidence interval = 1040-1051) and 898 ng/dL (95% confidence interval = 892-904) were necessary to achieve median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and appendicular skeletal muscle mass of 0.8 kg, respectively, which were required to significantly enhance one-repetition maximum strength (≥ 30%). Co-treatment with rhGH lowered the testosterone levels (quantified using liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry) necessary to reach these lean mass thresholds. Changes in one-repetition maximum strength were associated with increases in stair climbing power (r = .26, p = .01). Pathway analysis supported the model that changes in testosterone and insulin-like growth factor 1 levels are related to changes in lean body mass needed to enhance muscle performance and physical function. Testosterone's effects on physical activity were mediated through a different pathway because testosterone directly affected Physical Activity Score of the Elderly.

CONCLUSIONS:

 

To enhance muscle strength and physical function, threshold improvements in lean body mass and appendicular skeletal muscle mass are necessary and these can be achieved by targeting changes in testosterone levels. rhGH augments the effects of testosterone. To maximize functional improvements, the doses of anabolic hormones should be titrated to achieve target blood levels.

 

PMID: 21059836

 

FFT

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The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men

 

Kishore M. Lakshman, M.D., M.P.H., Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Nutrition, Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center, 670 Albany Street, Second Floor, Boston, Massachusetts 02118. E-mail: Kishore.Lakshman@bmc.org.

 

Abstract

 

Background: During testosterone (T) therapy, T is partly converted to 17β-estradiol (E2) and 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Effects of age, testosterone dose, and body composition on total and free E2 and DHT levels are unknown.

 

Objective: We evaluated age and dose-related differences in E2 and DHT levels in response to graded doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men.

 

Methods: Fifty-one young (aged 19–35 yr) and 52 older (aged 59–75 yr) men completed treatment with monthly injections of a GnRH agonist plus randomly assigned weekly doses of testosterone enanthate (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg) for 5 months.

 

Results: During testosterone administration, total and free E2 levels increased dose-dependently (dose effect, P < 0.001) in both young and older men. Total and free E2 levels and E2:T ratios during T administration were higher in older than young men, but age-related differences in free E2 and free E2:T ratios were not significant after adjusting for testosterone levels, percentage fat mass, and SHBG. DHT levels and DHT:T ratios were dose-related but did not differ between young and older men. Mechanistic modeling of free hormone data revealed that the conversions of T to E2 and DHT were both consistent with saturable Michaelis-Menten kinetics. The in vivo Km values were estimated to be 1.83 nm for aromatase and 3.35 nm for 5α-reductase, independent of age. The Vmax parameter for E2 was 40% higher in older men than younger men, but Vmax for DHT was not significantly different between age groups.

 

Conclusions: During im testosterone administration, E2 and DHT levels exhibit saturable increases with dose. The rate of whole body aromatization is higher in older men, partly related to their higher percentage fat mass, SHBG, and testosterone levels.

 

thought this would fit in here, when I just stumbled upon it

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Yeah...in 1996 when Bhasin et al. used 600mg of Test Enanthate per week for 10 weeks or so, I recall levels over 4,000ng/dl of total testosterone to be the average increase noted.

The study above is fitting with the concept/idea I noticed in the literature....that good LBM gains will not be experienced unless unless total Test levels are chronically doubled or at least tripled for at least 3 weeks...at the very least...

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So I'm OK injecting 2400 mg a week?

 

My muscle density and size would agree. Time to add Tren again

 

2.4 GRAMS a week should do the trick...

 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

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FWIW IME n>1 Anecdotally, a gram of test per week IM, gives a transformational increase in gains compared to the incremental doses yielded at lower doses. As for why, I do not know.

 

J

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Here is some more evidence that the relationship between T levels and body comp is not a linear one at least.

 

In this study, they brought these guys' who had TT in the 400-450 range to 550-600 with Androderm patches...and even though this represents a 30% increase, the changes in body composition were very small.

 

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):139-46. Epub 2007 Oct 16.

Testosterone therapy prevents gain in visceral adipose tissue and loss of skeletal muscle in nonobese aging men.

Allan CA, Strauss BJ, Burger HG, Forbes EA, McLachlan RI.

Source

 

Prince Henry's Institute, Monash University, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

 

Trials of testosterone therapy in aging men have demonstrated increases in fat-free mass (FFM) and skeletal muscle and decreases in fat mass (FM) but have not reported the impact of baseline body composition.

OBJECTIVE:

 

The objective of the study was to determine the effect, in nonobese aging men with symptoms of androgen deficiency and low-normal serum testosterone levels, of testosterone therapy on total and regional body composition and hormonal and metabolic indices.

METHODS:

 

Sixty healthy but symptomatic, nonobese men aged 55 yr or older with total testosterone (TT) levels less than 15 nm were randomized to transdermal testosterone patches or placebo for 52 wk. Body composition, by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (FM, FFM, skeletal muscle) and magnetic resonance imaging (abdominal sc and visceral adipose tissue, thigh skeletal muscle, and intermuscular fat) and hormonal and metabolic parameters were measured at wk 0 and 52.

RESULTS:

 

Serum TT increased by 30% (P = 0.01), and LH decreased by 50% (P

CONCLUSION:

 

Testosterone therapy, relative to placebo, selectively lessened visceral fat accumulation without change in total body FM and increased total body FFM and total body and thigh skeletal muscle mass. Further studies are needed to determine the impact of these body compositional changes on markers of metabolic and cardiovascular risk.

 

PMID: 17940111

 

 

FFT

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Also related in older men. Resistance training is still necessary for functional performance.

 

 

 

J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., 2013

Effects of Testosterone and Progressive Resistance Exercise in Healthy, Highly Functioning Older Men With Low-Normal Testosterone Levels

Hildreth, KL; Barry, DW; Moreau, KL; Vande Griend, J; Meacham, RB; Nakamura, T; Wolfe, P; Kohrt, WM; Ruscin, JM; Kittelson, J; Cress, ME; Ballard, R; Schwartz, RS

Context:Aging in men is associated with reduced testosterone (T) levels and physiological changes leading to frailty, but the benefits of T supplementation are inconclusive.Objective:We studied the effects of T supplementation with and without progressive resistance training (PRT) on functional performance, strength, and body composition.Design, Setting, and Participants:We recruited 167 generally healthy community-dwelling older men (66 ± 5 years) with low-normal baseline total T levels (200-350 ng/dL).Intervention:Subjects were randomized to placebo or transdermal T gel [2 doses targeting either a lower (400-550 ng/dL) or higher (600-1000 ng/dL) T range] and to either PRT or no exercise for 12 months.Main Outcome Measure:The primary outcome was functional performance, whereas secondary outcomes were strength and body composition.Results:A total of 143 men completed the study. At 12 months, total T was 528 ± 287 ng/dL in subjects receiving any T and 287 ± 65 ng/dL in the placebo group. In the PRT group, function and strength were not different between T- and placebo-treated subjects, despite greater improvements in fat mass (P = .04) and fat-free mass (P = .01) with T. In the non-PRT group, T did not improve function but improved fat mass (P = .005), fat-free mass (P = .03), and upper body strength (P = .03) compared with placebo. There were fewer cardiovascular events in the T-treated groups compared with placebo.

 

Conclusions:T supplementation was well tolerated and improved body composition but had no effect on functional performance. T supplementation improved upper body strength only in nonexercisers compared with placebo.

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Here is some more evidence that the relationship between T levels and body comp is not a linear one at least.

...

Thanks for those. I have no doubt that androgens have a non-linear relationship. I would love to know what those state transition points are - I suspect there are other ones other than the 1g one [iME]. Even more interesting IMO would be knowing why.

 

J

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FWIW IME n>1 Anecdotally, a gram of test per week IM, gives a transformational increase in gains compared to the incremental doses yielded at lower doses. As for why, I do not know.

 

J

 

How do you deal with the acne from such high doses? I almost never break out from cycles under 8 weeks, but after one month on test cyp @ 500mg/week I started breaking out. At month 4 now and my back is looking fucked. I mean it could be way worse, but it sucks. I love the energy, libido and dietary freedom test alots me, but the acne just blows. I know everyone is different, and I almost always got away rather unscathed from my cycles, but test seems a different beast.

 

Curious if you have any tips or suggestions to help curb the acne? Thanks man.

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See this:

 

http://corpus-scientia.com/forum/showthread.php?2715-What-is-your-E2-target-whether-on-TRT-or-anabolic-test-doses&p=60411#post60411

 

Cut your dose in half, if not by 2/3rds, if you dont want to deal with severe acne. I believe it's as simple as that. Use head and shoulders on the acne. Or nizoral shampoo, though that's a lot more expensive. Topical DHT blockade. Finasteride would also help, but you may not like the sides -- in my experience, it makes me wetter and reduces libido and edge.

 

I think I actually have some Finasteride. Purity Solutions sent me some by accident years ago and I never found a home for it. What sort of dosage are we talking?

 

As far as dropping dosage, I've noticed near immediate relief when I do that. Then again, I notice myself deflating. Haven't been lifting like I should the last month or so and I can't believe how little muscle mass I've lost. Plan to get back at it shortly, but shit. I see why guys never want to come off this stuff. A gram a week though sounds nutty. Can't imagine what the sides would look like.

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Quote
Nizoral shampoo may help.

 

So ketoconazole is the active I'm looking for right? Looking into generics now. Found an old Anthony Roberts article on it, he bragged about writing for MM, touting it as the reason people should believe him lol.

 

So should I leave it on, or just lather up in the shower and let it sit for a minute or two?

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Read the AR article and that answered my questions. Sucks it's so pricey, but I guess guys losing their hair will do and pay anything to keep it. I'll give this a whirl.

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So ketoconazole is the active I'm looking for right? Looking into generics now. Found an old Anthony Roberts article on it, he bragged about writing for MM, touting it as the reason people should believe him lol.

 

So should I leave it on, or just lather up in the shower and let it sit for a minute or two?

 

Yes, ketoconozole acts as a local anti-androgen...lather up your hair and let the lather run down onto your back and leave it there for a couple of minutes.

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Surely the subsequent anabolism from supraphysiological test is a function of dose & time.

 

Or, area under the curve.

 

 

1200ng/dl in 8 weeks, or 400ng/dl in 24 weeks? You may see a larger increase in the former case, yet I believe the slow & steady approach wouldn't be as susceptible to a rebound effect.

 

If the body's natural inclination is that of homeostasis, then a greater push towards anabolism will find greater in vivo resistance.

 

(although the upregulation of androgen receptors suggests a positive feedback loop. never really got my head around that.

 

 

 

However Joshua seems to suggest rate of change - at the upper end of what amateurs consider - yields alterations that escape my AUC theory.

 

 

testdoses.gif

25, 50, 125, 300 or 600 mg of test en showing a fairly linear relationship

the upper end of which is on 60% of the 'transformational' threshold Joshua speaks of

 

http://www.ergo-log.com/testfewsides.html

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Surely the subsequent anabolism from supraphysiological test is a function of dose & time.

 

Or, area under the curve.

 

 

1200ng/dl in 8 weeks, or 400ng/dl in 24 weeks? You may see a larger increase in the former case, yet I believe the slow & steady approach wouldn't be as susceptible to a rebound effect.

 

If the body's natural inclination is that of homeostasis, then a greater push towards anabolism will find greater in vivo resistance.

 

(although the upregulation of androgen receptors suggests a positive feedback loop. never really got my head around that.

 

 

 

However Joshua seems to suggest rate of change - at the upper end of what amateurs consider - yields alterations that escape my AUC theory.

 

 

testdoses.gif

25, 50, 125, 300 or 600 mg of test en showing a fairly linear relationship

the upper end of which is on 60% of the 'transformational' threshold Joshua speaks of

 

http://www.ergo-log.com/testfewsides.html

 

more discussion like this please. I'm personally very interested in knowing a lot more about the nature of androgen receptors and anabolics etc. For the most part, I think it's pretty beaten to death, but there are some aspects I have a great interest in understanding better.

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I have been on finasteride for around 10 months now. Wow' date=' it takes a while, but once the hairs start growing back much more coarsely, it comes back with a fury. I am quite titilated by it.[/quote']

 

and is your bodyhair responding by thinning out as well?

 

How about your sex drive and what not? Does the Test you're on prevent a loss of libido and strength and such, or is it a trade-off?

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How do you deal with the acne from such high doses? I almost never break out from cycles under 8 weeks, but after one month on test cyp @ 500mg/week I started breaking out. At month 4 now and my back is looking fucked. I mean it could be way worse, but it sucks. I love the energy, libido and dietary freedom test alots me, but the acne just blows. I know everyone is different, and I almost always got away rather unscathed from my cycles, but test seems a different beast.

 

Curious if you have any tips or suggestions to help curb the acne? Thanks man.

I have never many spots in my whole life. I had a handful on my upper arms during puberty, and the odd one on a heavy (couple of grams a week) androgen cycle, but that was about it. Up until the last few years, I had not bothered to look into it, however a friend of mine gets them quite badly at all time, so much so it has ruled out the use of androgens for him, so I am interested in anything that could help ameliorate the risk.

 

J

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Surely the subsequent anabolism from supraphysiological test is a function of dose & time.

 

Or, area under the curve.

 

 

1200ng/dl in 8 weeks, or 400ng/dl in 24 weeks? You may see a larger increase in the former case, yet I believe the slow & steady approach wouldn't be as susceptible to a rebound effect.

 

If the body's natural inclination is that of homeostasis, then a greater push towards anabolism will find greater in vivo resistance.

 

(although the upregulation of androgen receptors suggests a positive feedback loop. never really got my head around that.

 

 

 

However Joshua seems to suggest rate of change - at the upper end of what amateurs consider - yields alterations that escape my AUC theory.

 

 

testdoses.gif

25, 50, 125, 300 or 600 mg of test en showing a fairly linear relationship

the upper end of which is on 60% of the 'transformational' threshold Joshua speaks of

 

http://www.ergo-log.com/testfewsides.html

 

Thanks for that. I must admit that it confirms what I had suspected at lower doses. As for the mechanism behind the step change, I do not know.

 

J

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