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John250

New Member. Amphetamine Neurotoxicity & Rehab

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2 minutes ago, Niflheim said:

 

Why does it matter whether your dopamine precursors and mao inhibitors are natural? 

 I guess it doesn’t really I was just trying to think of the healthier option. 

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I just did an experiment today. I took my Vyvanse this morning and purposely left my Adderall at work. Right now I’m extremely tired and lethargic so I just tried .25mg ropinirole for the first time. It will take a few hours to kick in but I’m curious if I notice anything. It has a pretty short half-life of around 6hrs. Im an ultra metabolizers so for me probably like 4 hours. It’s typically dosed 3x/per day so if I just take it once a day and notice a difference it might be my answer short term while being off amphetamines. Then I can assess whether or not to taper off Ropinirole.

update: it’s been 3hrs and I feel no energy but I’m not as lethargic as I normally would be from no Adderall 

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Wow, this topic is a lot to digest.

 

That list of supplements you're consuming is unreal. Past a certain point, I can't believe all of those individual supplements are a net positive for you all the time. Some of those supplements are weak stimulants as well, with different half-lives that will guarantee you're lightly withdrawing from different compounds all day long and experiencing some long-term changes in response to those compounds.

 

At this point, it would be helpful if you could ditch literally all of the non-prescribed supplements and let your body wash out for at least a couple weeks. The purpose of this is to re-learn what your baseline actually feels like. It's entirely likely that at least some of the lethargy and flatness you're feeling is a result of the giant supplement cocktail you're taking.

 

Next, like Sanction said, you really need to get on top of your addictive tendencies and genuinely understand what the medications are for in the long-term. If you find yourself constantly escalating your Adderall dose as a way out, that's your top problem to solve. Adderall has short-term effects when you first start taking a new dose, which give way to long-term effects once your brain adjusts. If you're constantly escalating the dose each time your brain adjusts, that means you're chasing the short-term effects. As you well know, those effects are not sustainable, just as escalating dose patterns are not sustainable.

 

If you're going to stick with the Adderall, you must strictly adhere to a dosing schedule with purely therapeutic value. You will find that this does work long-term for ADHD symptoms, but it won't provide motivation, euphoria, and excessive energy in the long-term. This is perfectly normal and entirely expected, and should not be taken as damage to your dopaminergic system. That's just normal acclimation to the drug. It's not possible to derive long-term euphoria and motivation from it. If you can't take it without escalating your dose, you need to taper off and be done with it, because it's not doing you any favors.

 

Something Anonymous' suggestion to switch to Modafinil is worth considering. Don't be fooled: Modafinil still has abuse potential, though it does appear to be less prone to abuse by addictive individuals. It's actually used in recovering Methamphetamine and other stimulant addicts for exactly what you're describing.

 

Finally: You've got a lot going on with your supplement laundry list, Lexapro, Lamictal, Vyvanse, Adderall, Testosterone. It's extremely likely that even some combination of those medications and one of your 30? 40? supplements is inducing some amount of the anhedonia and fatigue that you've convinced yourself is damage to your dopamine system. Give some minimal time to withdraw, like 2-4 weeks, you should really be close to your original pre-Adderall baseline state.

 

That's my advice: Instead of looking for more substances to add to the list, start cutting back, and cut back significantly. Less is more here. Find baseline, understand your baseline, and know what you're really working with. Throwing more drugs and supplements at the problem isn't likely to move things in the right direction, but it certainly could add one more problem to the pile.

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I'm thinking that you seem to be convinced there is a pharmaceutical solution to your problems.

There is little or no good data on the effects of the substances you talk about. So my thought is you are lost in the realm of fantasy.

You remind me of another person named "Medievil" who had the same obsession with tweaking multiple chemicals to achieve some receptor-based solution. He seems to have disappeared for a few years now.

So, my thought is that it might be wise for you to expand your thinking out of that box.

 

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1 hour ago, Sanction said:

I'm thinking that you seem to be convinced there is a pharmaceutical solution to your problems.

There is little or no good data on the effects of the substances you talk about. So my thought is you are lost in the realm of fantasy.

You remind me of another person named "Medievil" who had the same obsession with tweaking multiple chemicals to achieve some receptor-based solution. He seems to have disappeared for a few years now.

So, my thought is that it might be wise for you to expand your thinking out of that box.

 

But why wouldn’t there be if there is a solution to other drugs. For opiates there’s naltrexone. Benzo’s theres flumazenil,etc...

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Those just nullify the acute effects of opioids and benzos, respectively. While I'm sure there are dopamine antagonists out there that stop amphetamines effects in the same way, I don't see how they would help with putative neurotoxic effects that might arise over long term overindulgence. 

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12 hours ago, John250 said:

But why wouldn’t there be if there is a solution to other drugs. For opiates there’s naltrexone. Benzo’s theres flumazenil,etc...

 

The best approach for something that you know you need to be off of is to get off of it as sanely as possible. Taking hundreds of dollars worth of supplements to try to hasten your recovery will only push other things out of alignment to the point of messing yourself up worse or making your recovery longer.

 

Sorry. In a world where feedback loops are everything (both hormonal and neurochemical), you can't keep pulling levers and turning knobs without repercussions.

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Welcome!!

 

Some thoughts:

 

-I'm not a psychiatrist, just a guy on the internet. But I would first seek resolution of the very vague diagnoses and evaluate the need for meds that you are currently prescribed. Again, I'm not a doctor....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

-That is waaaay too many supplements/drugs to have any idea of how they would interact with each other.

 

-So, you came off the amphetamines for 6 months. Describe what those 6 months were like, if you don't mind.  I ask because I have used amphetamines/methamphetamine off an on for 18 years. I've quit many times, for various reasons (sometimes for a year or more). When I come off of amphetamines completely I am really tired for the first week. Then pretty much normal the second or third week.

 

-What makes you think you think you have damaged your brain with your amphetamine abuse? (Serious)

I'm not making light of your concerns, but in the context of abuse 90mg's of adderall a day is pretty minimal compared to smoking a gram of ice per day.

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11 hours ago, ((Vibe)) said:

Welcome!!

 

Some thoughts:

 

-I'm not a psychiatrist, just a guy on the internet. But I would first seek resolution of the very vague diagnoses and evaluate the need for meds that you are currently prescribed. Again, I'm not a doctor....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

-That is waaaay too many supplements/drugs to have any idea of how they would interact with each other.

 

-So, you came off the amphetamines for 6 months. Describe what those 6 months were like, if you don't mind.  I ask because I have used amphetamines/methamphetamine off an on for 18 years. I've quit many times, for various reasons (sometimes for a year or more). When I come off of amphetamines completely I am really tired for the first week. Then pretty much normal the second or third week.

 

-What makes you think you think you have damaged your brain with your amphetamine abuse? (Serious)

I'm not making light of your concerns, but in the context of abuse 90mg's of adderall a day is pretty minimal compared to smoking a gram of ice per day.

Well when I went off before I was using Vyvanse at 70mg/day and each month dropped it 10mg until I hit 20mg and then stopped. Extreme fatigue the first week and then after that for the remaining 6months I still always had fatigue and lack of motivation. At that time I was working from home and only had one kid do it was somewhat manageable. A year ago we had another child and I opened my own business so I knew there was no way I could function without amphetamines again so I went back on Vyvanse. Then that lead to needing more and more so I added Adderall,etc.. I didn’t fully complete my detox earlier this month. I went off for 3 days and couldn’t take it anymore so I’m back on 60mg Vyvanse now but no Adderall or Dexedrine mid day and it’s been pretty rough. When I wake up in the mornings I feel flu like and still extremely tired even after proper sleep. When my Vyvanse kicks in I feel somewhat normal(still not energized) for about 3 hrs then it wears off. I’ve tried taking Modafinil mid day but it doesn’t do much.

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25 minutes ago, John250 said:

Well when I went off before I was using Vyvanse at 70mg/day and each month dropped it 10mg until I hit 20mg and then stopped. Extreme fatigue the first week and then after that for the remaining 6months I still always had fatigue and lack of motivation.

 

26 minutes ago, John250 said:

I opened my own business so I knew there was no way I could function without amphetamines again so I went back on Vyvanse.

 

I think part of the issue here is that you expect to be able to function without being high at the same level as you can function while you are high....and that's just not going to happen. If you feel the need to perform at a superhuman level that amp makes possible, staying on amp is the only way you can do it....and I suspect you are now so used to feeling the energy level that amp provides that the "fatigue" you feel when you come off is what the rest of us consider normal...

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2 hours ago, STENDEC said:

 

 

I think part of the issue here is that you expect to be able to function without being high at the same level as you can function while you are high....and that's just not going to happen. If you feel the need to perform at a superhuman level that amp makes possible, staying on amp is the only way you can do it....and I suspect you are now so used to feeling the energy level that amp provides that the "fatigue" you feel when you come off is what the rest of us consider normal...

It’s more so to the point where a normal persons “fatigue” is how I feel when on therapeutic doses of amp and energy only comes from high doses. 

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12 minutes ago, STENDEC said:

Yes. 

 

So your choices are to keep abusing because of the level it allows you to operate or get clean and accept that you won't be able to operate at that level any longer.

 

You don't really have any other options.

I don’t really know what else to do. With a family and a business I don’t know how else I can get by.  I guess all I can really do is try and stick with therapeutic levels and not abuse them. 

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I think that's a really great point.

 

I have 3 kids, and I've managed a busy schedule and work, and a career, and powerlifting, and chronic illness without crutches. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you all that, but it's definitely possible.

 

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From experience, lots of experience, as in you should really fucking listen, you need to stop taking literally everything to clean out and withdrawal. Find a true baseline after a few weeks. The withdrawal phase will be over with in just a week. Seriously. You'll be at 90%. The other 10% will take years so don't worry about it. You have no option but to clean out. Your habits sound so many alarms for me. You need therapy to get over your compulsive need to feel a certain way and re-dose. Don't take modafinil. You need to develop behaviors without dosing any of this crap. And yes I've tried modafinil and I know better. You need to focus on this behavioral issue above all else.

 

Your productive life will be fine. People blow this way out of proportion. WDs from amphetamines is not bad at all. And if you clean out on a Friday, you really should be physically fine by Monday with any reasonable mental fortitude. It's tricking yourself that you feel bad that fucks you over. You'll be fine. Think of incremental success with every hour that goes by without the uppers. You'll be much much more anabolic, so that's one thing. And when you're done finding out how you truly feel a few weeks after, try the modafinil as an alternative IF needed.

 

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm in the .05% of IV polydrug survivors with years clean now and I know better. I know how all of this goes with every medication or street drug. I spent 10 years in heavy research. Please listen to me because the way you are sounding, you're almost a lost cause. You need to listen. Sanction and Construct gave you pretty good advice and you ignored it and still wanted to take another medication. That's not going to help. Nothing will truly fix you but sobriety from the shit and you really sound worse than a lot of addicts I knew, prescribed vs street drugs doesn't matter and isn't the issue so don't go barking up that tree. I want to help, it's my mission in life to help people in this shit and I'll be damned if I didn't try.

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Not sure if anyone threw these in yet, but curcumin and sulforaphane which you get from broccoli sprouts.  Check out Dr Rhonda Patrick for more info on both, however through my years of research, struggle and abuse of amphetamines, those two are the stand outs.  And get rid of grains.  May sound silly, but going paleo helped me more than anything when coming out of a deep dark amphetamine hole. 

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On 7/29/2018 at 4:04 PM, Something Anonymous said:

If lethargy is your main problem I would switch out the Vyvanase and Adderall for Modafinil. Have you tried Modafinil? It is extremely effective for fatigue in my experience.

 

I second the move to modafinil, however I never made the jump from research to practice on that one.

 

Also wanted to throw in hot and cold therapies.  Go for 30 mins of sauna 4x/wk and see if you can't do some kind of cryotherapy, cold water immersion, something along those lines to jack your norepinephrine levels up and stop inflammation in it's tracks.  And just get the fuck off the stims, there's no nice middle ground with them.  Take solace in the fact you can afford the kitchen sink, garbage can, and half the supplement isle at Whole Foods. 

 

One of the biggest contributors to all my relapsing was being broke and aimless.  Figure out your triggers and work backwards. 

 

(Free audiobooks attached to the hyperlinks, enjoy)

 

Also read The War of Art by Steven Pressfield too, may help you understand the forces of Resistance in your life that lead you back to the stims over and over.  That's my two cents.

 

LAST ONE, Full Catastrophe Living by Job Kabat Zinn.  Book on mindfulness that will give you some perspective and tools to deal with the spiritual warfare you're currently engaged in.  Not sure if you have trouble sleeping, but I dare you to find a more soothing audiobook to drift off to.

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On 9/4/2018 at 3:13 AM, mwarren said:

From experience, lots of experience, as in you should really fucking listen, you need to stop taking literally everything to clean out and withdrawal. Find a true baseline after a few weeks. The withdrawal phase will be over with in just a week. Seriously. You'll be at 90%. The other 10% will take years so don't worry about it. You have no option but to clean out. Your habits sound so many alarms for me. You need therapy to get over your compulsive need to feel a certain way and re-dose. Don't take modafinil. You need to develop behaviors without dosing any of this crap. And yes I've tried modafinil and I know better. You need to focus on this behavioral issue above all else.

 

Your productive life will be fine. People blow this way out of proportion. WDs from amphetamines is not bad at all. And if you clean out on a Friday, you really should be physically fine by Monday with any reasonable mental fortitude. It's tricking yourself that you feel bad that fucks you over. You'll be fine. Think of incremental success with every hour that goes by without the uppers. You'll be much much more anabolic, so that's one thing. And when you're done finding out how you truly feel a few weeks after, try the modafinil as an alternative IF needed.

 

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm in the .05% of IV polydrug survivors with years clean now and I know better. I know how all of this goes with every medication or street drug. I spent 10 years in heavy research. Please listen to me because the way you are sounding, you're almost a lost cause. You need to listen. Sanction and Construct gave you pretty good advice and you ignored it and still wanted to take another medication. That's not going to help. Nothing will truly fix you but sobriety from the shit and you really sound worse than a lot of addicts I knew, prescribed vs street drugs doesn't matter and isn't the issue so don't go barking up that tree. I want to help, it's my mission in life to help people in this shit and I'll be damned if I didn't try.

 

My homie speaks truth here, and there is something to drying out off of everything and going balls deep on a paleo template/reset diet.  Seeing what it's like to be yourself again.  The deeper I got with my diet, the fewer and further between my shots of test got.  After 5 years I found myself pinning 250mg once a month and feeling amazing in between.  Got off shortly after that and within a month or two max my dick, libido and mind were more on point than at any time prior slamming all the best performance enhancers money could buy.

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 I figured out the only method that I’m hoping is going to work for me. I’m going to do an extremely slow taper. I am currently used to taking 24mg amphetamine(60mg Vyvanse) in the morning and around 30mg Dexedrine in the afternoon.  I’m going to start with one week of only decreasing The Dexedrine to 25mg. Then week 2 20mg. Week 3 decrease Vyvanse to 50mg(20mg amphetamine) keep the 20mg Dexedrine  and then just go from there to figure out if I would rather decrease 5 mg from my morning dose or afternoon dose each week. But the most important thing and the only thing that has helped so far is to only bring the exact doses with me to work so I have no option to use more. If I have it I’m going to use it. 

 

 I have noticed I have a very addictive routine based personality. For example a few months ago I started smoking cigarettes while looking through my emails. I found myself always needing a cigarette while looking through my emails. I feel like if I had gotten a freaking lollipop or a toothpick or something else and used that when I started reading my emails that is what would’ve been my addiction except I chose cigarettes.   I’ve been seeing a therapist who specializes in CBT and DBT.  What he said and what we are currently working on is I have ADHD and before I ever used amphetamines  I managed my life just fine but after using them my body was trained to manage life only while on them so I need to find other mechanisms,hobbies,etc... to replace with. 

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On 8/18/2018 at 10:42 PM, ((Vibe)) said:

Welcome!!

 

Some thoughts:

 

-I'm not a psychiatrist, just a guy on the internet. But I would first seek resolution of the very vague diagnoses and evaluate the need for meds that you are currently prescribed. Again, I'm not a doctor....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

-That is waaaay too many supplements/drugs to have any idea of how they would interact with each other.

 

-So, you came off the amphetamines for 6 months. Describe what those 6 months were like, if you don't mind.  I ask because I have used amphetamines/methamphetamine off an on for 18 years. I've quit many times, for various reasons (sometimes for a year or more). When I come off of amphetamines completely I am really tired for the first week. Then pretty much normal the second or third week.

 

-What makes you think you think you have damaged your brain with your amphetamine abuse? (Serious)

I'm not making light of your concerns, but in the context of abuse 90mg's of adderall a day is pretty minimal compared to smoking a gram of ice per day.

 

I second this line of inquiry.  Your addiction has taken as STRONG hold over you.  You've managed to find a doctor willing to prescribe methamphetamine to you, and in doing so legitimized your addiction with a diagnosis.  One I've personally spent enough time faking and convincing family members and other medical professionals alike to buy into, prescribe me my poison, and continue perpetuating my need for by way of effective rationalizations powered by fear of quitting.  When you learn to find your power from drugs, they rob you of your strength, and trick you into believing you need them.

 

Which is, btw, what you said earlier.  You were fine before them, now you're not.  You took meds that split your personality, developed a dependence on something you never needed to begin with, and now are working with people whose living is earned and predicated upon the symptom suppression, pill for every ill mentality that led to a country of chronically sick, overworked, under cared for and woefully mislead people.  Healthcare practitioners and patients alike.

 

Check out Russell Brands book Recovery.  He has a novel approach to the 12 steps that can be applied as equally to a shopping or porn addiction as they can be to prescription pills and the kitchen sink supplement sized addiction you are currently suffering from.  End of the day, you're managing a crystal meth in a pretty pill habit and trying to taper off a drug that doesn't lend itself to a tapered and titration approach.

 

Write down your fears, every reason why you can't stop.  Bullet point those bitches and throw them up here.  See what rationalizations look like in the public eye.  What they feel like when you type them out.  Give us the best reason not to stop.  Then maybe we can look at all the reasons why you'd like to, what quitting would mean for you, and all the things you won't miss out on if you can finally shake this monkey off your back.  And if you're in SoCal, holler at me and we can hit a NA meeting together.

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On 9/6/2018 at 3:43 PM, John250 said:

 I figured out the only method that I’m hoping is going to work for me. I’m going to do an extremely slow taper. I am currently used to taking 24mg amphetamine(60mg Vyvanse) in the morning and around 30mg Dexedrine in the afternoon.  I’m going to start with one week of only decreasing The Dexedrine to 25mg. Then week 2 20mg. Week 3 decrease Vyvanse to 50mg(20mg amphetamine) keep the 20mg Dexedrine  and then just go from there to figure out if I would rather decrease 5 mg from my morning dose or afternoon dose each week. But the most important thing and the only thing that has helped so far is to only bring the exact doses with me to work so I have no option to use more. If I have it I’m going to use it. 

 

 I have noticed I have a very addictive routine based personality. For example a few months ago I started smoking cigarettes while looking through my emails. I found myself always needing a cigarette while looking through my emails. I feel like if I had gotten a freaking lollipop or a toothpick or something else and used that when I started reading my emails that is what would’ve been my addiction except I chose cigarettes.   I’ve been seeing a therapist who specializes in CBT and DBT.  What he said and what we are currently working on is I have ADHD and before I ever used amphetamines  I managed my life just fine but after using them my body was trained to manage life only while on them so I need to find other mechanisms,hobbies,etc... to replace with. 

 

Please read my last response before this, but tapering amphetamines doesn't work.  They work less and less, and demand you take more and more. Cold turkey gets it done.  Sleep it off for a week.  But be prepared to fill all the holes in your life that the drug was filling.  Build a routine and plan of action that will guide your recovery.  Join a group.  Stop listening to the doctors that prescribed you this poison, debilitated you with diagnoses, and have only perpetuated this cycle of self harm in the name of antiquated science based on symptom suppression, completely ignorant to the idea of root cause analysis.  If you want some one on one chats, get at me.   

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