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John250

Proper CBD dosage?

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 I’m having a hard time finding studies showing what the most beneficial CBD dosage is for maximizing overall health and neurotoxicity reduction. I’ve been using 25mg/day  and studies show up to 1500 mg per day is safe and the highest dosage used in human study. ncbi has many studies showing 400mg+  But this seems like a very large dose  and would cost thousands of dollars per month to use. Does anyone know the best dosage to use? 

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I just listened to a podcast from Chris Kresser a few days ago regarding how to deal with anxiety with a Functional Medicine based approach.  He recommended 250mg/day of CBD to treat anxiety, so there's that. He cautioned that some may have an inverse reaction, so best to work your way up to that dosage.  I also asked at my local smoke shop this past week and they said smoking it makes it hit harder and faster, but ingesting it slows things down.  They sell CBD joints now at our local head shop, $10.  The guy told me he came in with a hangover, sparked one of those, and viola it was gone.  Wish more strains had a balanced THC:CBD ratio, and that the price would come the fuck down already.  Seems like there isn't much CBD doesn't seem to help with.

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On 8/13/2018 at 6:15 AM, D-termine said:

I just listened to a podcast from Chris Kresser a few days ago regarding how to deal with anxiety with a Functional Medicine based approach.  He recommended 250mg/day of CBD to treat anxiety, so there's that. He cautioned that some may have an inverse reaction, so best to work your way up to that dosage.  I also asked at my local smoke shop this past week and they said smoking it makes it hit harder and faster, but ingesting it slows things down.  They sell CBD joints now at our local head shop, $10.  The guy told me he came in with a hangover, sparked one of those, and viola it was gone.  Wish more strains had a balanced THC:CBD ratio, and that the price would come the fuck down already.  Seems like there isn't much CBD doesn't seem to help with.

What form do you get yours in? I use GetZen 25mg caps and it’s about $80 for a bottle of 30. I use 25mg/day but to hit 250mg that’s like a bottle every 3 days.

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I have a friend who is taking CBD oil made by a government-licensed medical cannabinoid producer with strict quality controls.

250 mg per day of that CBD oil from whole plant marijuana (not hemp) would cost about $25 per day

(that's a huge dose IMO, and I doubt you need to go anywhere near that to notice an effect)

Unregulated stuff will obviously be cheaper, but some producers have been caught using fungicides, so caveat emptor

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As others have stated, start low and check how you react. Sublingually I find that 25 mg as I wake and then two 12.5 mg doses throughout the day when things might be stressful.

 

I also use a whole plant CBD.

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I see a lot of CBD oil being marketed for use as a restorative agent, even to be rubbed on a sore joint. Is there anything to this? I'm sure it's helpful for pain, but not sure how good it is for reducing inflammation and/or tissue repair.

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On 8/3/2018 at 9:18 PM, Emperor G_D said:

No clue on CBD dosing. My guess is that the verdict is still out on that.

I couldn't find anything nearly definitive and I've been extensively researching cbd for months for a treatment option for Jamie's MS symptoms after Kelsey first told me about the stuff.

 

From what I gather, and this is important to the dosing, is that the endocannabinoid anandamide (forgive me if this is half correct) is the responsible one in reducing pain and inflammation. Now, CBD products do not contain this, but their use prevents this endogenous cannabinoid from depleting by whatever means, so that it can continue exerting its effects. This is all a theory, but the best one I've found. 

 

So, it would stand to reason that proper dosing would be in line with how much anandamide is in the person and needs sparing via displacement from other cannabinoids. 

 

We've come to find that cbd is a waste of money for moderate to severe pain, but it really does help her RLS and other lighter symptoms. I've recently got her using a vape with full plant before bed and obviously that works well lol. 

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On 8/19/2018 at 9:54 PM, Sanction said:

I have a friend who is taking CBD oil made by a government-licensed medical cannabinoid producer with strict quality controls.

250 mg per day of that CBD oil from whole plant marijuana (not hemp) would cost about $25 per day

(that's a huge dose IMO, and I doubt you need to go anywhere near that to notice an effect)

Unregulated stuff will obviously be cheaper, but some producers have been caught using fungicides, so caveat emptor

250mg is on par with the CBD dosages used in many human studies.

 

For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30328956

 

This study tested doses of 150mg, 300mg, and 600mg in a simulated public speaking test. Only the 300mg group differed significantly from placebo. The study was a bit underpowered in the first place, but the conclusion was that CBD has an inverted-U shaped response curve.

 

Looking at CBD prices online, I doubt many people are actually spending $10 to $15 daily for a 300mg dose of CBD. The few capsulized CBD formulations I saw were in the 30mg range per pill.

 

Much of the variability of recommend doses could come from the different routes of administration. Oral CBD bioavailability is very low, but sublingual and vaping delivers much higher bioavailability. Exact numbers are hard to come by, but it's possible that a 30mg sublingual dose could possibly be similar to a 300mg oral, swallowed dose if some of these bioavailability charts are correct.

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Here's another dose-response study of CBD. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30157131

 

Regarding a question Kim brought up, from the little I can remember about CBD I thought it wasn't very useful for treating acute injury pain and that that was more of THC's role (and even then, how it works to treat pain is by modulating the behavioral/emotional response to pain moreso than directly attenuating pain like opioids would). What I thought they could do, however, is treat some inflammation-related chronic pain and potentially treat specific types of immune induced neuropathies.

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3 hours ago, Construct said:

This study tested doses of 150mg, 300mg, and 600mg in a simulated public speaking test. Only the 300mg group differed significantly from placebo.

 

Yes, with 99.9% pure CBD. My friend's experience is with CBD extract from "whole plant" marijuana, so it would contain several different cannabinoids in small quantities and probably would have synergistic effects.

I have briefly sampled both 99% pure CBD and whole-plant-derived CBD in sublingual oil. Whole plant demonstrated effects at low doses (<20 mg), while the pure CBD had no perceptible effect at the same dose.

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Interesting story about CBD oil found here in Vox...basically, all the CBD you can get on the interwebs is badly underdosed....

 

"Anyone who tells you anything definitive about what CBD — or THC, for that matter — does to your body is lying. Nobody knows.....[Ingested] CBD has a very low bioavailability, something between 6 and 15 percent, which varies between people...because ingested CBD is so inefficient at actually getting to the brain to stimulate CB1 and other receptors, the doses shown to be effective have to be very high. There’s no evidence that doses below 300 mg of CBD have any effect in any psychiatric measure"

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4 hours ago, STENDEC said:

Interesting story about CBD oil found here in Vox...basically, all the CBD you can get on the interwebs is badly underdosed....

 

"Anyone who tells you anything definitive about what CBD — or THC, for that matter — does to your body is lying. Nobody knows.....[Ingested] CBD has a very low bioavailability, something between 6 and 15 percent, which varies between people...because ingested CBD is so inefficient at actually getting to the brain to stimulate CB1 and other receptors, the doses shown to be effective have to be very high. There’s no evidence that doses below 300 mg of CBD have any effect in any psychiatric measure"

Re this quote, that's a rather strange thing to even point out when the purported effects people want out of CBD are from its action at CB2R. You could also say people WANT this profile for CBD because it's partial agonist activity at CB1R, and that it's an allosteric inhibitor of CB1, prevents unwanted side effects like effects on locomotion, ataraxia, short term memory loss, etc, which happens when CB1R is activated. Also, peripheral isolation would be helpful for those just seeking immunomodulatory properties of CB2R. 

 

But I guess the article's bottom line about the differences in method of ingestion and how it affects the drug's pharmacology is important for people to understand so they can select the right agent and route of administration that's appropriate for them. 

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They seem to be assuming any relaxant effect can only be caused by cerebral CB1 receptors (the same ones that get you high).

Regarding the 6-15% bioavailability, they imply that high bioavailability is necessary for a drug to have an effect. Really?

The public speaking study is an extreme one since most people rate public speaking as their #1 fear. If so, a test on more moderate situations would probably yield different results.

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I actually think their point was that there is a real paucity of data on the effects of CBD oil in humans and that the claims of many of the commercial sellers of CBD oil glaze over this and ignore the fact that the data that do exist appear to show that the required dose of CBD oil to have a demonstrable effect on anxiety (for example) is some 10-20x the amount found in a typical serving of CBD oil as it is now being supplied to consumers....

 

I purchased some oil online before reading this article and the entire bottle contains 300mg of CBD...the suggested dose contains less than 5mg.

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Yes, this is what I am finding. My wife works for a company who started offering CBD for an OKish intro price. It has about the same amount of total CBD in it as yours. To me, the cost:potency is off. 

 

In fact, I'm seeing where CBD is engineered to be a ripoff at many places-especially in the fitness world. https://herbstrong.com/ 

 

Crazy pricing.

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12 minutes ago, Sanction said:

I am hoping to see many more hard core, placebo controlled trials in humans. I totally agree about many of the vendors who seem to just make up stories.

 

It seems to me that this is exactly what this is...a large-scale placebo study on humans, and a side-study on shared hallucination, and a cash-grab.

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CBD bioavailability is supposedly higher via sublingual or vaping. That still doesn't entirely close the gap between the 600mg doses used in studies and the significantly smaller doses in most common products.

 

Another major variable is the vague definition of CBD oil. From what I can gather, many of the CBD oil products being sold have non-trivial amounts of THC and other compounds in them. Enough so that there are reports floating around the internet of people failing THC drug screens by consuming CBD oil. Given that CBD seems to have some interactions with THC, I'm assuming that pure CBD isolate and CBD oil with non-trivial amounts of THC might behave quite differently.

 

And of course, the CBD hype machine is out of control right now. There's a lot of money flowing into the CBD space.

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5 hours ago, Construct said:

Another major variable is the vague definition of CBD oil.

 

Yep. I'm seeing "full spectrum hemp oil" being vaguely sold as CBD when the amount of CBD present is likely almost zero.

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