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Gut Microbiome Extinction

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https://getpocket.com/explore/item/how-the-western-diet-has-derailed-our-evolution

 

"Many who study the microbiome suspect that we are experiencing an extinction spasm within that parallels the extinction crisis gripping the planet. Numerous factors are implicated in these disappearances. Antibiotics, available after World War II, can work like napalm, indiscriminately flattening our internal ecosystems. Modern sanitary amenities, which began in the late 19th century, may limit sharing of disease- and health-promoting microbes alike. Today’s houses in today’s cities seal us away from many of the soil, plant, and animal microbes that rained down on us during our evolution, possibly limiting an important source of novelty."

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I actually try to limit my use of antibiotics. And we try to get a good array of various bacteria in our diets. Soups with lots of stuff I don't normally eat, various dairy, fermented stuff. I used to have so many IBS symptoms until I just relaxed and started eating a wide variety of things.

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I can't figure out from the article whether this is good or bad.

3 things I eat before noon affect the gut microbiome: cinnamon, stevia, aspartame. Then for all the other meals there is hot sauce. Might as well give up without those.

Check out the scientist in a camo shirt in the photo.

"Foods they tested that had antimicrobial effects include honey, licorice, stevia... aspartame, hot sauce, herbs such as oregano, spices such as cinnamon and clove, rhubarbs, uva ursi (bear berry), and neem extract."

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-01/sdsu-cfc010920.php

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I'm never going to find it but I seem to recall FunkOdessey posting some  article that indicated that even after months of probiotic therapy, if you discontinued taking them, your gut flora would fairly quickly return to how it was before you started.

 

Take home message, humans ate a lot of all sorts of stuff over our development and our gut microbiome developed along with us and is likely far more resilient than we seem to think it is....don't worry about the hot sauce. 

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This article suggests impacts on gut flora lasting at least 2 years post antibiotic treatment so I'm not so sure. 

 

I'm also not sure about or perception on probiotics. There seems to be this idea that perhaps its a gimmick or worthless if the strains don't take up permanent residence in our bodies. It would be absurd for me to claim vitamin C is useless because it doesn't stay in the body after you take it. Perhaps the natural order of things is constant addition to the colonies. We don't think of dehydration as a return to baseline when we stop drinking water, so why do we approach probiotics in that manner?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Supnut said:

We don't think of dehydration as a return to baseline when we stop drinking water, so why do we approach probiotics in that manner?

 

Because one self-replicates and one doesn't?

 

However, I don't think the fact that your gut biome returns to baseline when you stop taking probiotics means that they are useless. A cornfield will turn into a meadow and later a forest if the farmer stops planting corn there and tending it but that doesn't mean there is no value to his efforts if it is corn he wants.

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Bumping this thread because I've been reading up on probiotics again.

 

On the topic of long-lasting changes: I've been reading a few studies on D-Lactic Acidosis, a condition where out of control gut bacteria produce more D-Lactate than the body can handle. A few studies suggest long-term remission by alternating between antibiotics and probiotics. As far as I can tell, the ingested probiotics are more useful for destabilizing the microbiome in a way that ultimately settles into a different cluster of dominant bacteria, which may or may not contain much of the exogenous probiotic.

 

Interestingly, one study suggested that a concoction of antibiotic herbs had similar efficacy to prescription antibiotics in altering the gut microbiome. It wasn't just standard dietary levels of the herbs, though. They used concentrated oregano oil and other concentrated preparations. It would be interesting to see studies about the thresholds of these compounds required in the diet to have notable changes on the microbiome, though.

 

 

On the topic of probiotics and microbiome: I always feel a bit disappointed when I read about microbiome research. It feels like we've been hearing for years about the gut microbiome might have wide-ranging effects on general health, but I haven't seen many actual treatment options yet. Probiotic research is starting to feel like battery technology research, where we're constantly reading news headlines about the latest technology breakthrough, but actual shipping products continue to improve at a snail's pace.

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On 6/25/2020 at 4:39 PM, Construct said:

Bumping this thread because I've been reading up on probiotics again.

 

On the topic of long-lasting changes: I've been reading a few studies on D-Lactic Acidosis, a condition where out of control gut bacteria produce more D-Lactate than the body can handle. A few studies suggest long-term remission by alternating between antibiotics and probiotics. As far as I can tell, the ingested probiotics are more useful for destabilizing the microbiome in a way that ultimately settles into a different cluster of dominant bacteria, which may or may not contain much of the exogenous probiotic.

 

Interestingly, one study suggested that a concoction of antibiotic herbs had similar efficacy to prescription antibiotics in altering the gut microbiome. It wasn't just standard dietary levels of the herbs, though. They used concentrated oregano oil and other concentrated preparations. It would be interesting to see studies about the thresholds of these compounds required in the diet to have notable changes on the microbiome, though.

 

 

On the topic of probiotics and microbiome: I always feel a bit disappointed when I read about microbiome research. It feels like we've been hearing for years about the gut microbiome might have wide-ranging effects on general health, but I haven't seen many actual treatment options yet. Probiotic research is starting to feel like battery technology research, where we're constantly reading news headlines about the latest technology breakthrough, but actual shipping products continue to improve at a snail's pace.

 

I still don't understand which probiotics are D and which are L (lactate producing). 
this is why I've stopped using anything but regular kefir or yogurt

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On 6/26/2020 at 12:59 PM, Elle said:

 

I still don't understand which probiotics are D and which are L (lactate producing). 
this is why I've stopped using anything but regular kefir or yogurt

 

It's difficult to find good information on the D-Lactate topic. Some people in the autism community believe that reducing D-Lactate is helpful for reducing autism severity, which has attracted a lot of snake oil vendors and questionable science. Would be great if true, but I don't think the science supports it.

 

Even the D-Lactic Acidosis scientific papers leave more questions than answers. One of the more popular papers on treating D-Lactic Acidosis claims that it was treated with a mixture of probiotics that include D-Lactate producing probiotics. That's one reason why I think probiotics are a tool for disrupting the microbiome in the hopes that it re-settles into a healthier, or at least different, cluster of bacteria rather than directly recolonizing with the consumed probiotics.

 

From what I've read, Bifidobacterium won't produce D-Lactate. Some Lactobacillus have the machinery to produce D-Lactate, but it varies from strain to strain.

 

It would be great to see more research with actual D-Lactate measurements in real patients. We can clear certain amounts of D-Lactate naturally, but the real question is which microbiome configurations can produce enough D-Lactate to temporarily overwhelm our natural clearance abilities. Maybe it's a non-issue.

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