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STENDEC

AA and the treatment of alcoholism

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Recidivism rates are crazy. It has worked for a couple of people I know, but I strongly caution people against it.

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Do we know of any online sources for naltrexone?

Naltrexone injection kits are handed out to anyone for free to handle opoid overdoses, so it's odd that it isn't ubiquitous for alcohol use.

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I don't think Naltrexone is actually fast-acting enough to be used for overdose scenarios.

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No, I wasn't thinking of acute alcohol poisoning -- just noting that naltrexone is highly available for street drug use and almost unknown by physicians for other purposes.

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39 minutes ago, Sanction said:

No, I wasn't thinking of acute alcohol poisoning -- just noting that naltrexone is highly available for street drug use and almost unknown by physicians for other purposes.

Ras realized I was mixing up naltrexone with naloxone

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Pharma intervention has never made anything better for addicts. In fact, pharma intervention going back as far as the 1800s brought us the wisdom of trading heroin and cocaine addictions for each other.

 

Since big pharma is busy working on creating the messes and not cleaning them up, 12-step programs and weak replacement therapies like naloxone/suboxone/methadone are all we have. 

 

Hopefully someone will step in and start doing real, meaningful research on this at some point. 

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4 hours ago, ozzman said:

There is always shrooms. Psychedelics solve pretty much everything

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5826346/

 

In the new wave of Millennial Medicine (TM) all health problems are solved through a combination of psychedelics and CBD oil.

 

One of the AA founders is known to have considered LSD as part of the treatment process. It's not entirely clear to me how seriously he considered it, because most of the modern-day accounts feel like they've been embellished a bit. Regardless, it did come up at one point.

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6 hours ago, Construct said:

 

In the new wave of Millennial Medicine (TM) all health problems are solved through a combination of psychedelics and CBD oil.

 

One of the AA founders is known to have considered LSD as part of the treatment process. It's not entirely clear to me how seriously he considered it, because most of the modern-day accounts feel like they've been embellished a bit. Regardless, it did come up at one point.

His (Bill Wilson's) "moment of clarity" came from LSD use:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-theory

 

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13 hours ago, Emperor G_D said:

Pharma intervention has never made anything better for addicts.

 

For alcoholism, as the article indicates, there do seem to be some pharmaceutical interventions that are quite effective....it's sort of a shame that they are not in more widespread use.

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3 hours ago, STENDEC said:

 

For alcoholism, as the article indicates, there do seem to be some pharmaceutical interventions that are quite effective....it's sort of a shame that they are not in more widespread use.

 

Drug and alcohol addiction are treated as a moral failing-much like obesity. Getting compassionate and intelligent treatment for addicts has never been high on folks' agendae. Just like you don't see many pharma-based solutions for obesity. 

 

 I bet if there were a surgical intervention for addiction-like with obesity-you'd see it in widespread use. It doesn't count on willful consumption of a drug by people who may or may not wish to take it (and therefore compromise their sobriety). Similar to the 'moral failing' position of many people, a pill represents a "quick and easy fix" to some people, and I think there is considerable resistance to that type of treatment.

 

Addicts have to suffer for sobriety because they are bad people.

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Within AA some people believe that using any pharmaceutical is unacceptable because you are not "Sober."

The idea, then, is that Sobriety is the only goal, and "being well" or "living a better life" is impossible if you are taking anything that alters mood or cognition.

It's an extremely rigid and often self-defeating mindset.

(I learned this from a recovering addict who was helped by AA at first)

 

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30 minutes ago, Sanction said:

Within AA some people believe that using any pharmaceutical is unacceptable because you are not "Sober."

The idea, then, is that Sobriety is the only goal, and "being well" or "living a better life" is impossible if you are taking anything that alters mood or cognition.

It's an extremely rigid and often self-defeating mindset.

(I learned this from a recovering addict who was helped by AA at first)

 

 

Yeah, there's that, too. I think the Atlantic piece frames that up quite well.

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10 hours ago, Emperor G_D said:

Just like you don't see many pharma-based solutions for obesity.

 

I think this has more to do with the complexity of the problem....anyone who could come up with a truly effective pharmaceutical treatment for obesity would have a blockbuster drug unlike any other in history...

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AA is definitely not a great singular treatment option and some addicts become addicted to AA in recovery, which is bad as well. It is a good tool to use as PART of recovery, however. Group accountability is the main reason IMO. Combined with therapy from a liscence substance abuse therapist, exercise, and possibly naltrexone, you have a winning combination. 

 

AA alone is a terrible idea IMO. It doesn't solve the issues that cause triggers nearly like a therapist can. And addictive behaviors need to be identified and slowly modified. AA also does not fix the messed up reward system. Naltrexone may help here, physiologically, but not behaviorally. Therapist is most important IMO.

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1 minute ago, mwarren said:

AA is definitely not a great singular treatment option and some addicts become addicted to AA in recovery, which is bad as well. It is a good tool to use as PART of recovery, however. Group accountability is the main reason IMO. Combined with therapy from a liscence substance abuse therapist, exercise, and possibly naltrexone, you have a winning combination. 

 

AA alone is a terrible idea IMO. It doesn't solve the issues that cause triggers nearly like a therapist can. And addictive behaviors need to be identified and slowly modified. AA also does not fix the messed up reward system. Naltrexone may help here, physiologically, but not behaviorally. Therapist is most important IMO.

Couldn't agree more. I worry a little about the baby with the bathwater around AA vs. groups LIKE AA. Part of the AA racket is like the straight-edge racket...it has some false-naturalistic sense of what constitutes a problematic substance. That and denying personal agency (capacity to make choice) while ascribing agency to both the substance and a 'higher power' don't sit well with me. Accountability and group support = A+ even in harm redux approaches.

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10 hours ago, Ras said:

Couldn't agree more. I worry a little about the baby with the bathwater around AA vs. groups LIKE AA. Part of the AA racket is like the straight-edge racket...it has some false-naturalistic sense of what constitutes a problematic substance. That and denying personal agency (capacity to make choice) while ascribing agency to both the substance and a 'higher power' don't sit well with me. Accountability and group support = A+ even in harm redux approaches.

Wow. Yes. Those words are good.

 

Also, there are a LOT of people in AA that do NOT want to be there and have NO intention of staying sober. The court-ordered group. They make up a large percentage of most meetings and they are shifty characters. Trying to time their substance use around tests and whatnot. 

 

Anyways, not a good sect of people to be around if your intentions are good. But if you learn to avoid them and use the program as a tool in your box for accountability, then it's a useful tool. Get friendly with a cute girl on sobriety court, you're fucked.

 

But I like what you said with the wordy stuff up there. Spot on.

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I was ordered to do diversion when I was issued a citation for someone else's MJ in my home. I had to go through a class where they tried to convince the weak-willed attendees that they were hopelessly addicted, but that's not the point. My point is that during breaks in these awful daylong affairs, the hardcore addicts would head next door to the taqueria to hammer a bunch of beers.

 

lol

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