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D-termine

More or less protein on Anabolics?

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So I've been wondering if the increase in protein synthesis rates caused by anabolics makes your body more efficient with the protein you give it, and thus can do more with less?  Or do you need to increase protein in order to access the benefits of increased protein synthesis while on a cycle?  Here's the context for my question..

 

I've been on a lower protein diet as of late mainly due to it being such a pita to get 185g/day in (gram per pound of bodyweight).  I intermittent fast and prefer whole foods these days, so not only is my feeding window smaller but my appetite for humongous meals has simply dropped off.  I supplement with 30-60g of collagen/day** while getting around another 60g/day from whole food sources.  

 

I train with weights 2-3x/wk, jiu jitsu practice 2-3x/wk, and then throw in some cardio workouts and yoga along the way.  I've been maintaining skeletal muscle mass pretty well on what I'd guess is closer to 100-120g of protein per day, but my recovery is coming up just shy of what I'd like it to.  In steps Test/EQ.

 

Since my eating pattern is somewhat comfortable for me lifestyle wise, I'm curious if adding in 4-500mg/wk of anabolics will promote fitness gains if I simply stay the course with my diet?  Or should I be looking to up protein regardless and stop being a Nancy about it?

 

Last question..  I was told by a colleague that 16/8 style IF increases the body's capacity for utilizing nutrients and perhaps that is why we can still make fitness gains on lower calories..  Is there any truth to this?  Thank you very much!

 

**Understanding that collagen lacks the EAA Tryptophan, I rely on my animal protein sources providing the amino acid balance I need. Interesting study on this here..

 

Significant Amounts of Functional Collagen Peptides Can Be Incorporated in the Diet While Maintaining Indispensable Amino Acid Balance

 

Quote

The PDCAAS calculations determined that a level as high as 36% of collagen peptides may be used as protein substitution while maintaining the indispensable amino acid balance and the high protein quality score of the standard American diet (PDCAAS equals to 1.0). The PDCAAS calculation of the daily protein mixture containing 36% collagen peptides and 64% mixed proteins from the standard American diet is shown in Table 2. The first limiting amino acids were the sum of the sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cysteine. The PDCAAS calculations further revealed that the maximum proportion of collagen peptides that could be incorporated in the standard American diet is 54% while maintaining good dietary protein quality (PDCAAS equals to 0.75). In this case, the first limiting indispensable amino acid was tryptophan for all six collagen peptides (Table 1).

 

 

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Well here's what I've noticed so far.  Weight loss.  Haven't changed my diet or training.  Actually diets gotten a little worse.  My recovery scores based off HRV and daily strain and sleep data have all markedly improved.  Skeletal muscle mass is up 4lbs the first week, body fat down half a percent.  Strength in endurance and relative strength all up.  And my dick, I don't remember my dick getting this hard.  Have to keep asking myself if I forget and took cialis.  All on less that 300mg of test and about 300mg of EQ a week.  Training load will increase over the next week so we'll see what's up.  Not like this is news to anyone that anabolics work.  Guess 6 months off wasn't the worst idea.

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Like you said at the end of your second post, all these findings are not surprising. Anabolics work. This is what they do. You can go to the gym and lift like a total R, and you'll look like you pay for a professional BB coach and nutritionist. 

 

To the other question, I don't have a great answer. I also wonder to what end you're asking said question. I strongly suspect, but don't know for a fact, that your body both gets better at utilizing what protein it has as well as it absorbs more protein. Don't have citations for either claim. That said, some users e.g. Dorian Yates claimed to operate at around 100g/day of protein on cycle. I think as long as you compensate with carbs that could be a real thing. 

 

Now, I still feel that steroids in general should be thought of as result augmenters. So if you are satisfied with how your body looks like on a diet of chips, cheeseburgers, and beers, then steroids will make that body look even better. If you were to get on a "real" diet, and if you thought that body looked better than the body on chips/burgers/beers, then following the latter diet on steroids would make your body look even better than all the other aforementioned examples. So in the event you're wondering "is it optimal to run lower protein on cycle because you can, because your body is better at utilizing that protein," my best guess would be no, don't do that for that reason alone. If however the question is more like "I'm either resource restricted and/or don't have the appetite for all this protein, and/or I have medical issues that prevent me from eating an absurd amount of protein, can I get away with less on cycle," then the answer should be a resounding yes. You can still get results from that. 

 

That all said, I'm sure are some individual differences worth considering in this context, but I'm not the guy to answer those. 

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On 12/20/2019 at 10:39 AM, Growth Factor said:

 

To the other question, I don't have a great answer. I also wonder to what end you're asking said question. I strongly suspect, but don't know for a fact, that your body both gets better at utilizing what protein it has as well as it absorbs more protein. Don't have citations for either claim. That said, some users e.g. Dorian Yates claimed to operate at around 100g/day of protein on cycle. I think as long as you compensate with carbs that could be a real thing. 

 

 

Why compensate with carbs?  What's the mechanism you're looking to ping here?  Just keeping up with my activity level?  The more thought I've given it the more I have decided to layer on the protein.  So far though, results have been solid. 

 

Curious if there is a threshold dose for EQ that is well established?  I've read on here that 200mg of test/wk is more than enough to keep test levels elevated, and is perhaps the upper limit of what you can use before you begin to inhibit collagen synthesis.  My thoughts with around 200 test and 300 EQ a week is to boost collagen synthesis rates and make me less injury prone, while being able to better recover from all the joint injuries I'm getting in jits every week.  But also keeping androgen levels high enough to elicit some modest LBM gains and fat partitioning effects.  Thoughts or comments?

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On 12/22/2019 at 10:01 PM, D-termine said:

 

Why compensate with carbs?  What's the mechanism you're looking to ping here?  Just keeping up with my activity level? 

Basically. In the body, from a muscle-building/preserving standpoint, carbs and protein behave the same up to a certain point, assuming we're comparing non-keto diets to non-keto, or keto to keto. This is especially true in a bulk but begins to break down as you shrink your caloric window. 

 

On 12/22/2019 at 10:01 PM, D-termine said:

Curious if there is a threshold dose for EQ that is well established?  I've read on here that 200mg of test/wk is more than enough to keep test levels elevated, and is perhaps the upper limit of what you can use before you begin to inhibit collagen synthesis.  My thoughts with around 200 test and 300 EQ a week is to boost collagen synthesis rates and make me less injury prone, while being able to better recover from all the joint injuries I'm getting in jits every week.  But also keeping androgen levels high enough to elicit some modest LBM gains and fat partitioning effects.  Thoughts or comments?

 

 

I had never heard of this relationship before (test and collagen synthesis, and EQ and collagen synthesis), but I am intrigued and curious to learn more. 

 

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On 12/24/2019 at 9:43 AM, Growth Factor said:

Basically. In the body, from a muscle-building/preserving standpoint, carbs and protein behave the same up to a certain point, assuming we're comparing non-keto diets to non-keto, or keto to keto. This is especially true in a bulk but begins to break down as you shrink your caloric window. 

 

 

I had never heard of this relationship before (test and collagen synthesis, and EQ and collagen synthesis), but I am intrigued and curious to learn more. 

 

 

I found that info on test/eq/collagen on here actually.  Looked for the post again but couldn't track it down.  So someone on here posted about it..

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